Thursday, August 30, 2018

Music and Poetry of India, from films, to Love and Cherish


Jyoti kalash chhalke.

.Lata Mangeshkar_Sudhir Phadke_Pt.Narendra Sharma..a tribute

The indescribable quality here so simply shining in this song, the beauty of simplicity, of purity and bliss and light, was later in HAHK, and too in some other films of the b&w era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGgkXgZXJT8
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Lata Mangeshkar - Aye Mere Watan Ke Logo (Live Performance)

Quintessential lyrics that captured the time and encapsulated those months for ever, the song that brings the nation together more than any other!

Aye Mere Watan Ke Logon

Lata Mangeshkar

ऐ मेरे वतन के लोगों
तुम खूब लगा लो नारा
ये शुभ दिन है हम सब का
लहरा लो तिरंगा प्यारा

पर मत भूलो सीमा पर
वीरों ने है प्राण गँवाए
कुछ याद उन्हें भी कर लो
कुछ याद उन्हें भी कर लो
जो लौट के घर ना आये
जो लौट के घर ना आये

ऐ मेरे वतन के लोगों
ज़रा आँख में भर लो पानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

ऐ मेरे वतन के लोगों
ज़रा आँख में भर लो पानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

तुम भूल ना जाओ उनको
इसलिए सुनो ये कहानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

जब घायल हुआ हिमालय
खतरे में पड़ी आज़ादी
जब तक थी साँस लड़े वो
जब तक थी साँस लड़े वो
फिर अपनी लाश बिछा दी

संगीन पे धर कर माथा
सो गये अमर बलिदानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

जब देश में थी दीवाली
वो खेल रहे थे होली
जब हम बैठे थे घरों में
जब हम बैठे थे घरों में
वो झेल रहे थे गोली

थे धन्य जवान वो अपने
थी धन्य वो उनकी जवानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

कोई सिख कोई जाट मराठा
कोई सिख कोई जाट मराठा
कोई गुरखा कोई मदरासी
कोई गुरखा कोई मदरासी
सरहद पर मरनेवाला
सरहद पर मरनेवाला
हर वीर था भारतवासी

जो खून गिरा पर्वत पर
वो खून था हिंदुस्तानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

थी खून से लथ-पथ काया
फिर भी बन्दूक उठाके
दस-दस को एक ने मारा
फिर गिर गये होश गँवा के

जब अन्त-समय आया तो
जब अन्त-समय आया तो
कह गए के अब मरते हैं
खुश रहना देश के प्यारों
खुश रहना देश के प्यारों
अब हम तो सफ़र करते हैं
अब हम तो सफ़र करते हैं

क्या लोग थे वो दीवाने
क्या लोग थे वो अभिमानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

तुम भूल न जाओ उनको
इस लिये कही ये कहानी
जो शहीद हुए हैं उनकी
ज़रा याद करो क़ुरबानी

जय हिन्द जय हिन्द
जय हिन्द की सेना
जय हिन्द जय हिन्द
जय हिन्द की सेना

जय हिन्द जय हिन्द जय हिन्द

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sdyPozsx_6M
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Jeevan Dor Tumhi Sang Bandhi - Sati Savitri - Lata Mangeshkar


Incredibly beautiful song, old classic, old memories!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww6BYhEDlrI
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Sakhi Ri Sun Bole Papihaa Us Paar - Classical song from Miss Mary


Incredibly sweet, beautiful! And justly so. As to comparing and going this one better, no that one, that's as silly as standing at Prayaag and quarreling about Gangaa vs Yamunaa, which fits this celestial pair of singers very well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4pUsBHbZpQ
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SAAJAN BIN NEEND NA AAVE - LATA MANGESHKAR JI (RARE SONG) - MUNIM JI (1955) - SAHIR - S D BURMAN


Lovely song! Funny, one doesn't remember this one at all, didn't play on radio much then. Several classical songs did, so perhaps this was edited out of the film? Few people then had records, so film watching and listening to radio were the source. And latter depended on people writing to ask the song to be played, so -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNPgEzr8CwI
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KETAKI GULAB JUHI - MANNA DEY -BHIMSEN JOSHI - SHAILENDRA -SHANKER JAIKISHAN ( BASANT BAHAR 1956)

It was probably about this song that Manna Dey spoke, about how he was apprehensive, and Bhimsen Joshi reassured him, and said - dont worry, we'll have you win!

Or was there more than one song with the two great artists?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FseICrhx-W0
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O Sajanaa - Lata Mangeshkar

Beauty in it's complete manifestation as understood by India is in this beautiful song, with simplicity at soul, lyrical, musical, and easily understood by heart. Colour and race, makeup and expense are irrelevant, the beauty is of the young woman, in the simplest saree and no other dressing up such as jewellery, hums to herself longing for her mate as rain falls. Love of rains, so natural to India, is at heart of the whole experience of beauty here. And every facet of this is perfectly crafted, too - lyrics, music, picturisation of the simple young woman in the porch of her simple little home!

Anyone dares to claim India has racism, show this and ask, where, exactly? For this much can be a safe bet - anyone understands the total experience of beauty here, has either the capability to rise above racism, or is from India. And when someone has risen above, the vision stays, just as memory of golden sun lighting up the white peaks and ranges of the lofty abode of snow, Himaalaya, sinks deep in psyche forever long past one's return to plains far away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTl3-F24thk
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Tumse Hi Ghar Ghar Kahlaya.. Mukesh - Narendra Sharma - Sudhir Phadke..


Incredible remake of an incredibly superb original Marathi film, Vahininchya Bangadya".

As great as artist Meena Kumari was, she didnt have a cakewalk in this film. She had said in an interview that when she signed the film, she watched the original, and was quite daunted at the task of having to match up to the artist who performed the character in the Marathi original film.

Even for this song, the poet probably didn't have an easy task trying to match the original "Tu Nasatis Tar".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQrSxRzNvFU
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Zindigi Dene Wale... (Dil-e- Nadan)


Bekhata toune mujhse khushi chheen lee,
Zindaa rakhaa magar zindagi chheen lee,
Kar diya dil ka khoon,
Chup kha tak rahoon,
Saaf kyu na kahoon,
Tou khushi se meri dar gayaa!

True about some humans who demand lifelong slavery in exchange for having contributed a moment to giving life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7fUys1qRY
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KAISE KOI JIYE ZAHAR HAI ZINDAGI - BAADBAAN  -1954 - BOTH VERSION -GEETA DUTT & HEMANT, TIMIR, S K PAL, INDEEVAR


Nice. Old memories brought back.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SBzvXaEdQWw

Elsewhere, on another YT video of the same song someone has posted,


This video is false, with song from Baadbaan - a very popular one and eduring popularity at that - song imposed on video of another source, and title falsely credits wrong name for the film. Baadbaan starred Ashok Kumar,  Dev Anand,  Meena Kumari, and Usha Kiran,  in the four major roles. This star was no where in the film.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe_YFawnfog
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Ja main tose nahi bolu ..Lata Mangeshkar - Shailendra - Anil Biswas..tribute to the melody queen


That era, even what's now derogatorily termed as "item song" had this superlative quality, of both music and dance performance!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTcXSp2KvNs
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Rahi Matawaale - Talat Mehmood, Suraiya in Waris

Beautiful song and beautiful Suraiya, and memories - of a trek up mountain and coming down along a waterfall - that have little to do with either.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dS4jGtO0lT4
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Main Dil Hoon Ek Armaan Bharaa

Song : Main dil hoon ek armaan bharaa... Movie : Anhonee (1952), Singer-Talat Mehmood, Lyricist : Satyendra Athaiyya, Music Director : Roshanlal

Once in a few blue moons might such impossibly fabulous combination of talents happen to produce so incredibly beautiful a song with such a good artist for it's screen performance - lyrics, composition, voice, and the expressive incomparable Raj Kapoor!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqpECqkBVzE
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Jab Tum Hi Nahin Apne, with Nayan Deewaane - and the original Shey din dujoney

Lovely hearing original after the adaptation, thanks to this video which doesn't feature the original footage due to unavoidable reasons. The latter version, along with

Jab Tum Hi Nahin Apne

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bE5BRpd0Uck

is so quintessentially Suraiya! And yet the original here, Ravindra Sangeet, even the same melody, has very different effect. Some to do with lyrics, some with tempo, but the singer's are both supreme and done justice to lyrics.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JbUprp2Ki3s



Song : nain deewane,nain deewane ek nahi maane..Sheydin Dujoney 

Movie :Afsar ,1950,
Singer : Suraiya ,
Lyricists : Pandit Narendra Sharma
Music Director : Sachin Dev Burman
Director : Chetan Anand
Cast : Dev Anand, Suraiya, Kanhaiya Lal, Ruma Devi, Rashid Khan, Zohra Sehgal, Krishan Dhawan, Manmohan Krishan, Anand Pal, Mohan Sehgal,
Production Co: Navketan,

Lyrics :-
nain deewane,nain deewane ek nahi maane
kare man mani, maane naa nain deewane
huye hai paraye, man haar aaye
man ka maram jane naa, maane naa, maane na
nain deewane kare man maani, maane na nain deewane

jana naa jana, man hi naa jana
chitavan saawan, banata nishana
kaisa nishana, kaisa nishana
man hi pahechane naa, mane naa, mane na
nain deewane ek nahin mane
kare man mani, maane naa nain deewane

jeevan beli, kare athakheli
jeevan beli, kare athakheli
maheke man ke bakul
preet phul phule, jhulaa jhule
chaheke man bul-bul, maheke man ke bakul
man kya jaane, kya hoga kal
dhaar samay ki baheti pal pal
jeevan chanchal, jeevan chanchal
din jaake phir aane na, maane na, maane na
nain deewane ek nahi maane
kare man mani, mane naa nain deewane...

Original:-

Sedin dujone dulechhinu bone..
Rabindra Sangeet
Singer : Hemant Kumar (Hemanta Mukhopadhyay)

Original Lyrics:-

সেদিন দুজনে দুলেছিনু বনে, ফুলডোরে বাঁধা ঝুলনা ।
সেই স্মৃতিটুকু কভু খনে খনে যেন জাগে মনে ভুলোনা ।
সেদিন বাতাসে ছিল তুমি জান- আমারি মনের প্রলাপ জড়ানো,
আকাশে আকাশে আছিল ছড়ানো তোমার হাসির তুলনা ।।
যেতে যেতে পথে পূর্ণিমারাতে চাঁদ উঠেছিল গগনে ।
দেখা হয়েছিল তোমাতে আমাতে কি জানি কি মহালগনে ।
এখন আমার বেলা নাহি আর, বহিব একাকী বিরহের ভার-
বাঁধিনু যে রাখী পরানে তোমার সে রাখী খুলো না, খুলো না।


Transcripted Lyrics :-

Sedin dujone dulechinu bone, phulodore baadha jhulona
sei sriti tuku kobhu khone khone, jeno jage mone, bhulo na.
se din batase chhilo tumi jano, amari moner prolap jorano
akashe akashe achhilo chhorano tomar hasir tulona
jete jete pothe purnima rate chand uthechhilo gagane
dekha hoyechhilo tomate amate ki jani ki mohalogone
ekhon amar bela nahi aar, bohibo ekaki biroher bhar
bandhinu je rakhi porane tomar, se rakhi khulo na, khulo na.


Translation

In the woods we swayed together on a flowered swing
The memory perpetually returns
never forget!
That day, the wind was laden by my chatter
Your silver laughter rang the skies.
On our way, the full moon became radiant
A great moment it was, when we met.
No more it is my time
I bear the pain alone.
(But) the rakhi I tied to your heart
don't ever remove -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbUprp2Ki3s&app=desktop

Responding to a comment below another video of the song:-

You never know if someone could find strength enough in future to break a word sworn and meanwhile the young guy had a life and couldn't be allowed by an elder brother to waste away in heartbreak. It wasn't Chetan Anand in the wrong! Yes, it would have been lovely if only they could have married, if only the others who disapproved hadn't informed the granny, if only the parents were stronger! Would have been good to see a beautiful couple so in love happy and have children beautiful like them. But even as it is, the love story remains unforgettable.

youtube.com - Nain Diwane Ek Nahin Mane-Afsar - Suraiya
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Bekaraar Hai Koi - Shammi Kapoor & Suraiya - Shama Parwana

Wonder who the beautiful companion is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSakjIe3e4o
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Aapse Pyaar Hua Jaataa Hai - Suraiya.
Film - Shama

Perfectly described in lyrics and expressed in music the state of being on verge of love and waves that irresistibly draw one deeper, with perfect performance by Suraiya vocally and visually !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sC19dfAtZAA
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Ae Dil Na Mujhse - Badal 1951 Song - Madhubala - Prem Nath - Mukesh - Lata Mangeshkar

Lovely.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=saIVAVuIocs
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Exquisite Beauty


Sakhi Ri Sun Bold Papihaa Us Paar

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e4pUsBHbZpQ


Shyaamsundara Roop Nayan - Lata Mangeshkar - Malkauns

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3IVJQXOhGSQ


Tu Hai Meraa Prem Devataa

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ET1BPuO_aG8


Preetam Daras Dikhao..Manna Dey - Lata - Rajendra Krishna - Madan Mohan..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=koCcAQKaKzU W

Main Sitaaron Kaa Taranaa | Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi Songs | Kishore Kumar | Madhubala

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob56hsABMts
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Mazandaraa, Mazandaraa - Talat Mahmood,  
RUSTOM SOHRAB - Prithviraj Kapoor, Suraiya

For years, decades, this song's refrain was at back of mind, with no clue that it was from this film seen about half a century ago or so, and it was only recently that much was understood better due to such internet benefits!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qVsC_n_xG2Y
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Dharti Kahe Pukaar Ke (HD) - Do Bigha Zamin Songs - Balraj Sahni - Meena Kumari - Manna Dey

Incredible film, incredibly superior performances. Balraj Sahni above all. He was so real, during break when he gave a Rs. 100 currency note to a paan vendor, the vendor was certain this rickshaw puller had stolen it. He called the policeman who was around.

At 1:45 spot Chitra, major star in Marathi films.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD-AWCj9Chc
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Dum Bhar Jo Udhar - Raj Kapoor - Nargis - Awaara - Mukesh - Lata Mangeshkar - Evergreen Hindi Songs


Funny, when one comprehend RK work, its a steep dose of quinine, which he has people ingesting knowing fully well it is so, because it's so heavily and yet attractively overcoated with honey and spice - which is completely in accord with Naatyashaastra!

Here in the perhaps his best work, and arguably best production only matched by Jaagte Raho, perhaps one of the best films ever, at that, this song and romance is what most people of course remember, and in fact repeatedly watch the film for; and yet, this song, the romance, are just the overstating of honey with spices. The real soul is the story of the mother and son - she abandoned for no fault of hers and striving to bring up a child all by herself in poverty and on brink of starvation, he forever anguished with the realisation he has to look after her and handicapped by first his young age, then his lack of education and being caught in a bad trap. The young woman who is draped in romance angle is in fact the only relief and hope, only support and aspiration for the tortured soul. In this respect her role is not that different from that in Jaagte Raho, only there it is more obvious.

And while there is no denying the romance angle of this song, a much more complex song with matching complex filming is the much less often remembered one before her birthday - the line "Ab Raat Guzaranewaalie Hai", with its overlaying of several completely different meanings, all just as much of anguish to the two characters as the obvious one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0J4IE7DkuQ
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(Jaal) Yeh raat yeh chandni phir kahan - .S. D. Burman, Hemant Kumar


Eternal dilemma, between path and the blossoms lining it, distant peaks lit and gardens close, self and pangs of suffering desert. Superb film.

Several ways it's so very different from the then norm, the faultlessly beautiful hero plays an out and out villain who not only cheats the law but women as he goes along - credit to Dev Anand for playing this role without excuses added - and has every intention of cheating the heroine until he realises he's in love, the heroine who isn't shy but a working woman in primitive seafaring fishing and quite rambunctious but innocent until she is caught in the snare of this guy and makes a choice, and the beautiful music of course is cherry on top!

Funny, there seems a dearth of information about production, so it's probably not Navketan, and one name given of producer on internet is T. R. Fatechand, which sounds Gujarati, which makes the crew as pan India as can be.

Hero Dev Anand was from Punjab, as was the heroine Geeta Bali, although the story and location shooting was of southwestern coast, closer to the home region of director and script writer Gurudutt whose family was from Karnataka but his own early years having been in Bengal he was heavily influenced by the culture of Bengal. The music director of the film was S. D. Burman, from as much eastern edge of Bengal as it can get - his own family name being probably about ancestral roots from Burma, although his family was royal family of Tripura - and finally, the singer here is Hemant Kumar.

Hence the inclusion of this in the Bengal series here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBw_JSiNF9c


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4GfUK9Urb6I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBw_JSiNF9c
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kabhi na kabhi kahin na kahin.. - Rajinder Krishan - Madan Mohan..


Long time since one heard this - those days it was often enough on radio, heard throughout neighbourhoods like fragrance of flowers and incense wafting out on breeze.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T4iOgKMV7HE
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LATPAT LATPAT TUJHA CHAALAN GA … SINGER, LATA MANGESHKAR … FILM, AMAR BHUPALI (1951)

Did nobody else realise how this original gem was copied by the famous film maker in Hindi, with nonsensical lyrics and a few Marathi words thrown about, like sprinkling coconut and kothimbir on a rajma hamburger and calling it Marathi!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L72j6tHdwMk
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Aasman Wale Teri Duniya Se Jee Ghabaraa Gaya..

Lata_Talat_Laila Majnu1953..a tribute

Lyricist: Shakeel Badayuni,
Music Director: Ghulam Mohammad,
Director: K Amar Nath,
Producer: P N Arora,
Cast: Shammi Kapoor, Nutan, Ulhas, Begum Para, Ratan Kumar, Kammo, Vasti,
Production : All india pictures,
Lyrics :-

aasman wale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya
aasman wale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya
char din ki chandani me gam ka baadal chha gaya
aasman vaale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya

aasman vaale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya
aasman vaale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya
jal gaya dil soz-e-gam se, jab koi yad aa gaya
aasman vaale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya

aag me phulo ki duniya ne mera tan rakh diya
aag me phulo ki duniya ne mera tan rakh diya
ek murde ko sajaakar naam dulhan rakh diya
bol maalik ye tamaasha tujhse kyun dekha gaya
aasman vaale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya

kis qadar naashad hu barbaad hu viran hu
kis qadar naashad hu barbaad hu viran hu
raham kar mujh par khudaya
raham kar mujh par khudaya, mai bhi ek insaan hu
maut hi de de ke ab, shikva zuba par aa gaya
aasman vaale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya
char din ki chandani me gam ka baadal chha gaya
aasman vaale teri duniya se ji ghabra gaya..


Lesser known gems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb51L-ZXxqA
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HAIN SABSE MADHUR WO GEET -TALAT MEHMOOD -SHAILENDRA-SHANKER JAIKISHAN (PATITA1953)


Her beauty was rarely appreciated as much as deserved, while his has only been as unappreciated officially as his work, by critics.

The verses of course are direct translation of the famous English poem

Our sweetest songs are those
That tell of saddest thoughts
We look before and after
And pine for what is not.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AMJ3yQ54dtE
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Hum Kitna Roye... (Shin Shinaki Bubla Boo)

Mixed Visuals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqYGk-V9jrE
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Ab Kahan Jaye Hum - Manna Dey - Ujala - Shammi Kapoor - Shankar Jaikishan


Makes one curious about this film, which was hardly ever talked or written about - as do most songs of this film.


Responding to a comment below the original YT video by

R.U.A KATTU?:-

"ये हमारा ख़्याल ही रहता है कि "पहले" का ज़माना  "आज"  के ज़मान से बेहतर था ।  महाभारत काल में भी (५००० साल पहले) भाई भाई का भरोसा नहीं कर सकते थे (कौरव-पांडव / कर्ण-अर्जुन / विभीषण-रावण), बच्चे ताया, मामा और चाचा का भरोसा नहीं कर सकते थे (धृतराष्ट्र-पांडव, मामा शकुनि..) , शिष्य गुरु का भरोसा नहीं कर सकता था (एकलव्य-द्रोणाचार्य) । केकैयी जैसी माँ और कंस जैसे मामा भी थे ।
चार में से दो बच्चों का मर जाना आम बात थी, टी.बी. के मरीज़ों को दूर ले जा कर मरने के लिये सैनिटोरियम में छोड़ दिया जाता था, दिव्यांग सिर्फ़ भीख ही माँग सकते थे, मानसिक रोगीियों को पागल घोषित कर के सड़क पर छोड़ दिया जाता था, अकाल आम बात थी .........   आदि आदि ।
आज  ज़माना    कुछ    बेहतर  ही  हुआ  है     बदतर   नहीं  : औरतें उठ खड़ी हुई हैं, लड़कियाँ दबंग हुई हैं, समाज कल्याण की संस्थायें कुछ काम करती हैं ..... आदि आदि ।"


Jaynt Sanjay:-

"kuch bhi ,kuch bhi likh dete ho? pehle☺☺
Ek baar Ramayan or mahabharat padh lo baad me likho.
Ramayan me ravan ke liye uske saare bhai apni jaan de dete hai. or Ram ke bhaiyo ka to aap jaante ho.
mahabharat me duryodhan ke bhai uske liye jaan dete hai or paanch pandav ka pyar aap ko pata hoga."


What is recalled, and written in epics, are legendary conflicts amongst good and bad, civilising process and primal resistance. So past does look golden, when looking at Mahaabhaarata, but not so much post Prithviraj Chauhan until resurgence if India against invaders from time to time, in spirit and more. And yes, evolution is working to bring about better lives for all via greater consciousness, but it's not necessarily aligned with left. Finally, it's not always about brothers loving each other and parents while wives obey spouses regardless of all conscience. So women being wronged isn't to be tolerated silently, is the least one should derive from the great epics of India, before going pontificating about brothers being bad then or on the contrary exemplary.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwRT_MfsPUY
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Jan-e-bahar husn tera..Shakeel Badayuni - Ravi..


Wonder which Raaga, or is it a mix? 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6dVti1YVwM 
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MANMOHANA ! BADE JHHOTHE -LATA -SHAILENDRA (SEEMA 1955)-SHANKER JAIKISHAN


Lovely song,  beautiful film.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7S_8HlKV40
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sajan sang kahe neha lagaye..Lata_Shailendra_S J..a tribute


Beautiful song! Old favourite, didn't know it was from this film.

Also, there is that sense of deja Vocus again, which one felt like one was having for another song of this film, Nazar Nazar Se. There it was the song. Different words, different tune, bar or restaurant instead of private party, but an attempted copy of Mud Mud Ke Na Dekh, all the same. Here, it's the general situation, the triangle of the simple Indian woman pining for the guy who's dancing and drinking in a bar with the westernized crowd with a woman that belongs in that crowd.

Wish someone would upload the film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6YDWUduzQo
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Sakhiri Sun Bole Papiha Us Paar - Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Bhosale

Incredibly sweet, beautiful! And justly so. As to comparing and going "this one better, no that one", that's as silly as standing at Prayaag and quarreling about Gangaa vs Yamunaa, which fits this celestial pair of singers very well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4pUsBHbZpQ
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Saanwre Saanwre..Anuradha1960- Lata - Shailendra- Pt Ravishankar..a tribute

Wonder why is the beautiful second stanza

Gopi Gwaale, Dekhanewaale
Bin Vichaare Kahenge Saare
Pakadi Raadhaa ki chori

missing, was the record malfunctioning?

Responding to a comment below the original yt video about the eternal struggle of her to find her identity:-

It's far more complex than that - she was brought up lovingly in a wealthy home, and married for love, with her old life given up happily enough. It's only that she is far too lonely in the remote country home while her husband is busy treating patients and doing research in his lab at home, and has little time. If thus were in town or elsewhere where she had other things to occupy her, she might be less lonely, but chiefly she misses his attention. As he entreats her after she's decided to leave, he is aware he didn't have time for her, but had even less for himself, being busy keeping people alive! And she changes her mind about leaving, precisely because fame isn't important to her, love and home and family are. As for music, she can continue, only, it's still a lone country home surrounded by villages where he is needed. It's her decision to stay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=364vdw96Su4


This link above has ceased to exist for copyright reasons, however, there are others, given here.


Saanwre Saanwre..Anuradha1960- Lata - Shailendra- Pt Ravishankar..a tribute

ANURADHA (1960)
BALRAJ SAHNI, LEELA NAIDU, BABY BANO, MUKRI, NAZIR HUSSAIN, ASIT SEN, RASHID KHAN
Produced By: LB.FILMS
Directed By: HRISHIKESH MUKHERJEE
Music By: RAVI SHANKER


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VitQASqOC5E


 Film: Anuradha-- Saanware Saanware --Lata Mangeshkar (1960)
Film: Anuradha-- Saanware Saanware --
Lata Mangeshkar (1960)
Lyrics-Shailendra
Music Composition--Pt Ravishankar


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMJN6VXRou8
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Tere Bin Soone Nain Humare - Lata Mangeshkar - Meri Surat Teri Aankhen

Beautiful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJnDIEKSPkk
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Woh Bhoolie Daastaan Lo Phir Yaad Aa Gayie

वो भूली दास्ताँ लो फिर याद आ गई


Beautiful song and beautiful Anita Guha.


वो भूली दास्ताँ लो फिर याद आ गई
नज़र के सामने घटा सी छा गयी वो भूली दास्ताँ...
कहाँ से फिर चले आये, ये कुछ भटके हुए साये
ये कुछ भूले हुए नग़मे, जो मेरे प्यार ने गाये
ये कुछ बिछड़ी हुई यादें, ये कुछ टूटे हुए सपने
पराये हो गये तो क्या, कभी ये भी तो थे अपने
न जाने इनसे क्यों मिलकर, नज़र शर्मा गयी
वो भूली दास्ताँ...

उम्मीदों के हँसी मेले, तमन्नाओं के वो रेले
निगाहों ने निगाहों से, अजब कुछ खेल से खेले
हवा में ज़ुल्फ़ लहराई, नज़र पे बेखुदी छाई
खुले थे दिल के दरवाज़े, मुहब्बत भी चली आई
तमन्नाओं की दुनिया पर, जवानी छा गयी
वो भूली दास्ताँ...

बड़े रंगीं ज़माने थे, तराने ही तराने थे
मगर अब पूछता है दिल, वो दिन थे या फ़साने थे
फ़क़त इक याद है बाकी, बस इक फ़रियाद है बाकी
वो खुशियाँ लुट गयी लेकिन, दिल-ए-बरबाद है बाकी
कहाँ थी ज़िन्दगी मेरी, कहाँ पर आ गयी
वो भूली दास्ताँ...


wo bhooli daastaan lo phir yaad aa gayi
nazar ke saamne ghataa si chhaa gayi
nazar ke saamne ghataa si chhaa gayi
wo bhooli daastaan lo phir yaad aa gayi

kahaan se phir chale aaye, ye kuchh bhatke huye saaye
ye kuchh bhoole huye naghme, jo mere pyaar ne gaaye
ye kuchh bichhdi huyi yaadein, ye kuchh toote huye sapne
paraaye ho gaye to kyaa, kabhi ye bhi to the apne
na jaane inse kyon milkar, nazar sharmaa gayi
wo bhooli daastaan lo phir yaad aa gayi

ummeedon ke haseen mele, tamannaaon ke wo rele
nigaahon ne nigaahon se, ajab kuchh khel se khele
hawaa mein zulf lahraayi, nazar pe bekhudi chhaayi
khule the dil ke darwaaze, muhabbat bhi chali aayi
tamannaaon ki duniyaa par, jawaani chhaa gayi
wo bhooli daastaan lo phir yaad aa gayi

bade rangeen zamaane the, taraane hi taraane the
magar ab poochhtaa hai dil, wo din the yaa fasaane the
faqat ik yaad hai baaki, bas ik fariyaad hai baaki
wo khushiyaan lut gayin lekin, dil-e-barbaad hai baaki
kahaan thi zindagi meri, kahaan par aa gayi
wo bhooli daastaan lo phir yaad aa gayi
nazar ke saamne ghataa si chhaa gayi
nazar ke saamne ghataa si chhaa gayi
wo bhooli daastaan lo phir yaad aa gayi
wo bhooli daastaan lo phir yaad aa gayi


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vwVqOiR193o
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Tower House (1962) - Aya Mere Dile Nadan Tu Gamse Na Gabharana -
Lata Mangeshkar (Full Song)

Once so familiar, heard now after decades!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui0fPCpl7g0
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Jis Desh Mein Ganga Behti Hai - Raj Kapoor - Mukesh,Manna Dey, Lata - Indian Patriotic Songs


This song is, in spirit, continuation of Dil Kaa Haal from Shri 420, but much wider in its grasp.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S2klnDakoRw
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Lag Ja Gale - Lata Mangeshkar

Eternal Dilemma of Human, trapped as ever in inexorable flow of Time, facing a moment of time fleeting by, never to return - unable to hold on, unable to stop it, indecisive about throwing oneself with it into flow of life, of Time!

https://thesongpedia.com/lag-jaa-gale-woh-kaun-thi/
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MAIN YE SOCH KER USKE DAR SE - RAFI - KAIFI AZMI - MADAN MOHAN ( HAQEEQAT 1964 )


Exquisite poetry, simple and subtle, pain of a lifetime of heartbreak in one word deceptively simple and hiding in the simple description of events leading to the devastating separation  - set to such beautifully simple, elegant melody, and filmed on a backdrop of lofty Himaalayan ranges with a desert at those heights in the forefront that matches the loneliness of life of the soldiers, alone together in guarding the borders of nation while their hearts are just as much of a desert on the backdrop of the lofty role they play in protection of their nation.

Who else but this team, Chetan Anand, Roshan and Kaifi Azmi!

It wasn't until much, much later that we realised this film wasn't hyperbole, however much well deserved, but plain and simple real story of the defence of Rezang La pass by a handful of Indian soldiers who defended it against a Chinese onslaught of a couple of thousand, or was it three, killing most of them and dying to the last man themselves - the tough conditions and the then not readiness of equipment of military of india, chiefly due to naively blinkered political philosophy of a gandhian aversion to military, had trapped this company into this circumstance,  and they had come through with such daunting valour!


गाना / Title: .....................मैं ये सोचकर उसके दर से उठा था -
चित्रपट / Film: Haqeeqat
संगीतकार / Music Director: मदन मोहन-(Madan Mohan)
गीतकार / Lyricist: Kaifi Azmi
गायक / Singer(s): मोहम्मद रफ़ी-(Mohammad Rafi)

मैं ये सोचकर उसके दर से उठा था
के वो रोक लेगी मना लेगी मुझको

हवाओं में लहराता आता था दामन
के दामन पकड़कर बिठा लेगी मुझको

कदम ऐसे अंदाज़ से उठ रहे थे
के आवाज़ देकर बुला लेगी मुझको

मगर उसने रोका
न उसने मनाया
न दामन ही पकड़ा
न मुझको बिठाया
न आवाज़ ही दी
न वापस बुलाया

मैं आहिस्ता आहिस्ता बढ़ता ही आया
यहाँ तक के उससे जुदा हो गया मैं ...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLYEZ2uIrM
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AURAT NE JANAM DIYA MARDON KO - LATA - SAHIR - N DUTTA (SADHANA 1958)


Sahir excels here  -

aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko
 mardo.n ne usse bazaar diyaa
 jab jii chaaha maslaa kuchlaa
 jab jii chaaha dhutkaar diyaa
 aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko

tulatii hai kahii.n diinaro.n mei.n
 biktii hai kahii.n baazaaro.n mei.n
 nangii nachvaaii jaati hai
 aiyyasho.n ke darbaaro.n mei.n
 ye vo beizzat chiiz hai jo
 banT jaatii hai izzatdaaro.n mei.n
 aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko

mardo.n ke liye har zulm ravaa.n
 aurat ke liye ronaa bhii khataa
 mardo.n ke liye laakho.n seje.n
 aurat ke liye bas ek chitaa
 mardo.n ke liye har aish ka haq
 aurat ke liye jiina bhii sazaa
 aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko

jin hoTho.n ne unko pyaar kiyaa
 un hoTho.n ka byopaar kiyaa
 jis kokh mei.n inkaa jism Dhalaa
 us kokh kaa kaarobaar kiyaa
 jis tan se uge ko.npal ban kar
 us tan ko zalil-o-khaar kiyaa
 aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko

mardo.n ne banaayi jo rasmein
 unko haq kaa farmaan kahaa
 aurat ke zindaa jalne ko
 qurbaani aur balidaan kahaa
 ismat ke badle roTi dii
 aur us ko bhii ehsaan kahaa
 aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko

sansaar kii har ek besharmii
 gurbat kii god mei.n paltii hai
 chaklo.n hii mei.n aa kar ruktii hai
 phaako.n se jo raah nikalti hai
 mardo.n ki havas hai jo aksar
 aurat ke paap mei.n Dhalti hai
 aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko

aurat sansaar kii qismat hai
 phir bhii taqdiir kii heThii hai
 avtaar payambar jantii hai
 phir bhii shaitaan kii beTii hai
 ye wo bad-qismat maa.n hai jo
 beTo.n kii sej pe leTi hai

aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko
 mardo.n ne usse baazaar diyaa
 jab jii chaaha maslaa kuchlaa
 jab jii chaaha dhutkaar diyaa
 aurat ne janam diyaa mardo.n ko

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RSAjnqg7OeE
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Cryptic title - "This song was supposed to be impossible for human voice"

- and my comment is simply "Beautiful!"!!

Now, "the video is unavailable", so one has to guess!

"Kahin Deep Jale, Kahin Dil"?

https://youtu.be/SBenttZUT7A
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Hoon Abhi Main Jawan - Shakeela, Guru Dutt, Geeta Dutt, Aar Paar Song

Such an underappreciated gem, the song and the beautiful performer artist, both!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoESiBRIvok
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Zindigi Dene Wale Sun... Talat Mahmood (Dil-e- Nadan)

Bekhata toune mujhse khushi chheen lee,
Zindaa rakhaa magar zindagi chheen lee,
Kar diya dil ka khoon,
Chup kahaan tak rahoon,
Saaf kyu na kahoon,
Tou khushi se meri dar gayaa!

True about some humans who demand lifelong slavery in exchange for having contributed a moment to giving life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7fUys1qRY
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Ritu Aaye Sakhi Re -
Lata Mangeshkar, Manna Dey -
HAMDARD - Nimmi,Shekhar,Smriti Biswas

Patajhada jaisaa Jeevana Beeta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIjGhDPMqSM
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Aa chal ke tujhe.. Kishor Kumar- Door Gagan Ki Chhaon Mein- Kishore da..


"Door Gagan kee Chhav Mein (1964),
Singer -Music Director, Lyricist ,Actor , Producer and Direction: The Great Kishore Kumar"

Says most of it; then hear the album, and the sheer superlative genius composer shines through!

There weren't many other multifaceted geniuses, even in that era of art over cash, that could match RK,  except this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bNULRlWh1k
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Jin raaton ki bhor nahin hai..Kishore Kumar_Shailendra..Door Gagan Ki Chhaon Mein


What an immense genius this artist that composed the music here apart from singing, wish he'd composed more than just the few - three? four? - films that he produced!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC9pjy8jSOk
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Koi Lauta De Mere Beete Huye Din- Door Gagan Ki Chhaon Mein


What a composer! Here, the melody conveys both at once - the sense of loss and missing at present, of the joy of the old in the skipping, lilting of yore!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS9wKERopvE

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RAHI TU MAT RUK JAANA -ALL 3 PARTS-DOORGAGAN KI CHHAON MEIN -HEMANT KMR-SHAILENDRA-KISHORE KUMAR

Beautiful.

This song, this series of compositions by Kishore Kumar, for a series of films he wrote, produced, directed, performed on screen and sang for, deeply connects the Bengal sensibilities to the Hindi films, far more so perhaps than most other examples of works by Bengali artists - except when Bimal Roy and S. D. Burman worked together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZdEb29_TU4
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PANTHI HOON MAIN US PATH KA- DOOR KA RAHI - (1971) -KISHORE KUMAR -A IRSHAD

Beautiful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdP3_1lU91s
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KHOYA KHOYA CHANDA - ASHA - SHAILENDRA - KISHORE (DOOR GAGAN KI CHHAON MEIN 1964)


Not only Asha Bhosale never sounded this sweet, before or after, but Supriya Chowdhury never looked so beautiful, so sweet.

Kishore Kumar was genius at music composition, as evident in all music he composed (which is three or four films, less than half a dozen certainly), especially in this one,  but his creative genius must be far more, like that of RK and Dev Anand, in every artist giving their best, or looking their best, or - as in case of the Venus of Indian film industry, Madhubala who was his beautiful second wife - looking her happiest and making it clear she was most beautiful when laughing, which was in films with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAadoY6X6Ds
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PATH BHOOLA IK AAYA MUSAFIR - ASHA - SHAILENDRA - KISHORE (DOOR GAGAN KI CHHAON MEIN 1964)

Not only Asha Bhosale never sounded this sweet, before or after, as in this film, but Supriya Chowdhury never looked so beautiful, so sweet.

Kishore Kumar was genius at music composition, as evident in all music he composed (which is three or four films, less than half a dozen certainly), especially in this one,  but his creative genius must be far more, like that of RK and Dev Anand, in every artist giving their best, or looking their best, or - as in case of the Venus of Indian film industry, Madhubala who was his beautiful second wife - looking her happiest and making it clear she was most beautiful when laughing, which was in films with him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMCvDdWD1a8
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Dil Ki Raahen 1973


रस्म-ए-उल्फ़त को निभाएं तो निभाएं कैसे
हर तरफ़ आग है दामन को बचाएं कैसे
रस्म-ए-उल्फ़त को निभाएं...
दिल की राहों में उठते हैं जो दुनिया वाले     -२
कोई कह दे के वोह दीवार गिराएं कैसे         -२
रस्म-ए-उल्फ़त को निभाएं...
दर्द में डूबे हुए नग़मे हज़ारों हैं मगर -२
साज़-ए-दिल टूट गया हो तो सुनाए कैसे      -२
रस्म-ए-उल्फ़त को निभाएं...
बोझ होता जो ग़मों का तो उठा भी लेते      -२
ज़िंदगी बोझ बनी हो तो उठाएं कैसे  -२
रस्म-ए-उल्फ़त को निभाएं...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTXd3PWYKOA
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Ma Go Pother Klanti Bhule - Morutirtho Hinglaj - Hemanta Mukherjee


This is not the first time one is hearing this song, but often significance escape one until need arises.

If this doesn't wake up those blinkered and lulled by lies claiming India was never one, that Baluchistan is not part of india or never was, that Baloch are nit indian - nothing will, for they are not blinkered or lulled or asleep, merely pretending!

For a Bengali film to be titled Maruthirtha Hinglaj is as much indicative of those pronouncements against India's unity, as the fact related by Tarek Fateh about the Baloch defending the temple of Hinglaj Maataa, the reigning Goddess that is deity thereof ,from the assaults of jihadists and pakis.

This song, sung in the true Bhakti spirit of Baul and of Mother Goddess worship, features a small caravan on feet and some on camels, in pilgrimage to the Hinglaj Maataa temple, across the desert - presumably not a group of pilgrims that belong to the nearby region, since they are crossing a desert, and the song and scene are about pains thereof. This can only be the desert that spans much of Rajasthan and beyond, perhaps including the Gujarat border.

And whether the story, the scene, are about the people featured here being from Bengal or not, the film and the song and the verses are certainly Bengali. At least one character, an old woman, does seem Bengali,  and that makes the contention about unity of India far stronger - for thepilgrimage all the way from a green, water rich Bengal to a temple across not only a thousand miles but across also a severe desert with its horrendous heat, for an old woman to suffer to visit a temple, not certain of life in the process much less comfort, is only possible with an underlying unity of the culture, the soul.

When a song in a film with verses, music,  and artists performing the scene, the director and writer et al are all from Bengal,  and it's all about a group of Indian devotees on a painstaking pilgrimage across deserts of India, to reach Hinglaj Maataa temple,  questioning unity of India is merely the ex colonial conspiracy to divide and destroy.



পথের ক্লান্তি ভুলে স্নেহ ভরা কোলে তব
মাগো, বলো কবে শীতল হবো |
কত দূর আর কত দূর বল মা?

আঁধারের ভ্রুকুটিতে ভয় নাই,
মাগো তোমার চরণে জানি পাবো ঠাঁই,
আর আঁধারের ভ্রুকুটিতে ভয় নাই,
মাগো তোমার চরণে জানি পাবো ঠাঁই,
যদি এ পথ চলিতে কাঁটা বেঁধে পায়
হাসিমুখে সে বেদনা সবো।
কত দূর আর কত দূর বল মা?

চিরদিনই মাগো তব করুণায়
ঘর ছাড়া প্রেম দিশা খুঁজে পায়
ঐ আকাশে যদি মা কভু ওঠে ঝড়
সে আঘাত বুকে পেতে লবো।
কত দূর আর কত দূর বল মা?

যতই দুঃখ তুমি দেবে দাও
তবু জানি কোলে শেষে তুমি টেনে নাও,
মাগো যতই দুঃখ তুমি দেবে দাও
তবু জানি কোলে শেষে তুমি টেনে নাও,
মাগো তুমি ছাড়া এ আঁধারে গতি নাই
তোমায় কেমনে ভুলে রবো
কত দূর আর কত দূর বল মা?

পথের ক্লান্তি ভুলে স্নেহ ভরা কোলে তব
মাগো, বলো কবে শীতল হবো |
কত দূর আর কত দূর বল মা?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQWvaxRiykE


.........................................................................................................................


Aye Mere Pyare Watan - Bimal Roy - Salil Chowdhury - Kabuliwala Songs - Balraj Sahni, Usha Kiran - Manna Dey


Heart breaking portrayal of the loneliness of migrants, so subtly portrayed by the author, Tagore, in the short story Kabuliwaalaa, that was made into a Bengali film, and then this Hindi film produced and directed by the incomparable Bimal Roy, with music by Salil Chowdhury. And thus the deep bond here of this Hindi song, from a Hindi film, about an Afghan selling dry fruits in a city completely across the country from anywhere remotely close to his homeland.

The superbly expressive face of Balraj Sahni as the fellow Pathan sings about their homeland - and who played that other pathans, remains a mystery - compares in contrast with his attentive demeanour as he hears a Baul singing paens to Ganga on the banks of the river.

Who but Balraj Sahni, when expressing a character's travails, innermost turmoil, was the need, without bombastic dialogues in ex colonial vocabulary! His silences, his ordinary dialogues say far more than the so labelled thespian.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAdeqOrfzPA
.........................................................................................................................


Koi Matwala Aaya Mere Dware - Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Parekh, Love In Tokyo Dance Song


Funny how even in media and critics, let alone industry and public, so rare was the perception that this artist was practically a twin of the then top southern beauty in films, in both looks and dance - not that their performances of characters were at so different a level, either - and the only difference really was perhaps of this artist being not quite as haughty as the slightly more senior one. This one, one recalls, was known for having travelled across the country with her dance troupe, performing in theatres, chiefly her favourite Choladevi. Still, she's counted more amongst the ones that took on roles of  naughty young characters of the day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3BOEAmC1pY
.........................................................................................................................


Chhoti Si Mulaqat Pyar Ban Gayi -

Party Song - Chhoti Si Mulaqat -

Uttam Kumar, Vyjayanthimala


The original Agnipariksha where the golden couple of Bengali films had perhaps their first superhit, was a far quieter, deeper flow; since Uttam Kumar himself produced this remake, he probably had a good reason to change it so much. Judging from this dance, perhaps he did it to fit in with the then upcoming trend, or perhaps he needed to ascertain his own multifaceted capabilities. But the story suited the quieter and deeper original far more, and that was probably the reason this one didn't do well.


One recalls the then trend of this variation of draping saree, which was also seen in Sangam. Here, though, she seems to wish to compete with the original of this role, there is a hint of Suchitra Sen in the way she holds herself at times, which was never before or after. They had been together in Devdas by Bimal Roy, before this, and later Suchitra Sen did Aandhi after Vyjayantimala had refused. 


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U4iaCga94so
.........................................................................................................................


Bade Bhole Ho - Best of Lata Mangeshkar - Majrooh Sultanpuri Song - Ardhangini

The music, artist and singer, all equally superlative!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=daPHd2EqQR8
.........................................................................................................................


YE RANG BHARE BAADAL - ASHA -RAFI ASAD BHOPALI -RAVI -TU NAHIN AUR SAHI (1960)

Long time since one heard this - those days it was often enough on radio, heard throughout neighbourhoods like fragrance of flowers and incense wafting out on breeze.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_SdLpQ5Xo8A
.........................................................................................................................


Ni Baliye Rut Hai Bahar Ki (HD) - Kanhaiya - Raj Kapoor - Nutan - Lata Mangeshkar

Surprisingly, good film. One goes to see it due to its songs and artists, and ends up marvelling at the well executed finesse by the director and screenplay writer!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_u4EQboVc
.........................................................................................................................


SAAWAN KE MAHEENEIN MEIN - SERIOUS VERSION - RAFI - RAJENDRA KRISHNA - MADAN MOHAN (SHARABI 1964)


Daisy Irani?


Responding to a comment below the original YT video by Kartikeya Pandya:-

"I wonder why Devsaab dropped Rafisaab for Kishore Kumar later on though Rafisaab gave all time immortal hits with him.Any explanation?"

Dev Anand used various singers, it was up to the composer to make a selection based on the needs of the music. There were half a dozen singers at the top amongst male voices, none particularly deserving exclusive rights to any maker. And it was never a crime to use Kishore Kumar. But rafi gave up music because he was told it was against his faith.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IbE4U2vLNHE
.........................................................................................................................


Kaarvaan guzar gaya....Nai Umar Ki Nai Fasal


How revered this song was then, way above others with few for same level of reverence! Now, it seems hard to believe it was written for the situation, about young idealists losing an election, however real and painful the disenchantment. Perhaps the poet had written it about the pain at partition, about a million lives lost and ten times that many displaced?

Lyrics transcription here thanks to

Seema Suri


स्वप्न झरे फूल से,
मीत चुभे शूल से,
लुट गए सिंगार सभी बाग के बबूल से,
और हम खड़े-खड़े बहार देखते रहे।
कारवाँ गुज़र गया, गुबार देखते रहे!

नींद भी खुली न थी कि हाय धूप ढल गई,
पाँव जब तलक उठें कि ज़िन्दगी फिसल गई,
पात-पात झर गए कि शाख़-शाख़ जल गई,
चाह तो निकल सकी न, पर उमर निकल गई,
गीत अश्क बन गए,
छंद हो दफन गए,
साथ के सभी दिए धुआँ-धुआँ पहन गए,
और हम झुके-झुके,
मोड़ पर रुके-रुके,
उम्र के चढ़ाव का उतार देखते रहे।
कारवाँ गुज़र गया, गुबार देखते रहे।

क्या शाबाब था कि फूल-फूल प्यार कर उठा,
क्या सुरूप था कि देख आइना सिहर उठा,
इस तरफ़ ज़मीन और आसमाँ उधर उठा
थाम कर जिगर उठा कि जो मिला नज़र उठा,
एक दिन मगर यहाँ,
ऐसी कुछ हवा चली,
लुट गई कली-कली कि घुट गई गली-गली,
और हम लुटे-लुटे,
वक़्त से पिटे-पिटे,
साँस की शराब का खुमार देखते रहे।
कारवाँ गुजर गया, गुबार देखते रहे।

हाथ थे मिले कि जुल्फ चाँद की सँवार दूँ,
होंठ थे खुले कि हर बहार को पुकार दूँ,
दर्द था दिया गया कि हर दुखी को प्यार दूँ,
और साँस यों कि स्वर्ग भूमि पर उतार दूँ,
हो सका न कुछ मगर,
शाम बन गई सहर,
वह उठी लहर कि दह गए किले बिखर-बिखर,
और हम डरे-डरे,
नीर नयन में भरे,
ओढ़कर कफ़न, पड़े मज़ार देखते रहे।
कारवाँ गुज़र गया, गुबार देखते रहे!

माँग भर चली कि एक, जब नई-नई किरन,
ढोलकें धुमुक उठीं, ठुमुक उठे चरन-चरन,
शोर मच गया कि लो चली दुल्हन, चली दुल्हन,
गाँव सब उमड़ पड़ा, बहक उठे नयन-नयन,
पर तभी ज़हर भरी,
गाज एक वह गिरी,
पोंछ गया सिंदूर तार-तार हुईं चूनरी,
और हम अजान-से,
दूर के मकान से,
पालकी लिए हुए कहार देखते रहे।

sapne jhare phool se
meet chubhe shool se

lut gaye singaar sabhi  baag ke babool se

aur hum khade khade 
bahaar dekhte rahe

karvaan guzar gaya
gubar dekhte rahe.

neend bhi khuli na thi ki haye dhoop dhal gayi
paon jab talak uthe ke zindagi pesal gayi
paat paat jhar gaye ke shaakh shaakh jal gayi
chah to nikal saki na par umar nikal gayi
par umar nikal gayi

geet ashk ban gaye
Swapn ho dafan gaye
saath ke sabhi diye 
dhuan pehen pehen gaye
aur hum jhuke jhuke
mode par ruke ruke
umar ke chadhaav ka
utaar dekhte rahe

karvan guzar gaya ghubar dekhte rahe.

kya shabaab tha ke phool phool pyar kar utha
kya kamaal tha ke dekh aainaa sihar utha
Iss taraf zameen aur asmaan udhar utha
thaam kar jigar utha ke  jo mila nazar utha
ke jo mila nazar utha

ek din magar yahaan
aisee kuchh hawa chali
lut gayi kali kali ke ghut gayi gali gali
aur hum lute lute
waqt se pite pite
saanjh ki sharaab ka
khumaar dekhte rahe

karvaan guzar gaya  ghubar dekhte rahe.

haath the mile ke zulf chaand ki sanwaar doon
hounth the khule ke har bahaar ko pukaar doon

dard tha diyaa gayaa ke har dukhi ko pyaar doon
aur saans yoon ki swarg bhoom par utaar doon
 bhoom par uthaar doon

ho saka na kuchh magar
shaam ban gayi saher
woh uthi lehar ke dheh gaye kile bikhar bikhar

aur ham dare dare
neer nayan mein bhare
odh-kar kafan pade mazaar dekhte rahe

karvan guzar gaya  gubar dekhte rahe.

maang bhar chali ke ek jab nayi nayi kiran
dholken dhunuk uthi  thumuk uthe charan charan

shor mach gaya ki lo chali dulhan  chali  dulhan
gaaon sab umad padaa behek uthe nayan nayan
 behek uthe nayan nayan

par tabhi zehar bhari
gaaz ek wah-giri
punchh gaya sindoor 
taar taar huvi choonri

aur ham ajaan se
door ke makaan se
palki liye huwe  kahar dekhte rahe

       karvaan guzar gaya
               ghubaar dekhte rahe

sapne jhare phool se
meet chubhe shool
lut gaye singaar sabhi
baagh ke babool se
aur  ham karhe karhe
bahaar dekhte rahe

karvaan guzar gayaa
ghubaar dekhte rahe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljH6BJchuMo


.........................................................................................................................


Kasme Waade Pyar Wafa - Manna Dey Upkar

Describes generalities pretty well.

Movie/Album: उपकार (1967)
Music By: कल्याणजी आनंदजी
Lyrics By: कमर जलालाबादी
Performed By: मन्ना डे

कसमे वादे प्यार वफ़ा सब
बातें हैं बातों का क्या
कोई किसी का नहीं ये झूठे
नाते हैं नातों का क्या
कसमे वादे प्यार वफ़ा...

होगा मसीहा सामने तेरे
फिर भी न तू बच पायेगा
तेर अपना खून ही आखिर
तुझको आग लगायेगा
आसमान में उड़ने वाले
मिट्टी में मिल जायेगा
कसमे वादे प्यार वफ़ा...

सुख में तेरे साथ चलेंगे
दुख में सब मुख मोड़ेंगे
दुनिया वाले तेरे बनकर
तेरा ही दिल तोड़ेंगे
देते हैं भगवान को धोखा
इन्सां को क्या छोड़ेंगे
कसमे वादे प्यार वफ़ा...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oIiHAKDfksk
......................................................................................................................... 


Ek Tha Bachpan - Sumita Sanyal - Akshok Kumar - Aashirwad -  Lata Mangeshkar


Exquisite.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rqGZDkAO_8M
......................................................................................................................... 


BEQARAAR DIL TU GAAYE JA - SULAKSHNA PT. - KISHORE KMR - A IRSHAD (DOOR KA RAHI 1971)


Tremendous multifaceted talent of Kishore Kumar, matched perhaps only by RK. 

And Pandit family talent flows in generations! 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bz4Wk5Ydgso
......................................................................................................................... 


Ja khushi ora bole boluk; Singer - Manna De; Movie - Nishipadma


This original has a soothing quality to the music and singing, the performance of Uttam Kumar,  and a reality to the setting, to the being and dressing and performance of Sabitri Chatterji, that's mostly missing from the Hindi remake with its glamourised dress and makeup replacing the real portrayals of the Bengali original.  


Ja khushi ora bole boluk 
Oder kathaay ki eshe jaay 
Orrai raater bhramar hoye 
Nishipadmer madhu je khaay 

Ora diner belaay jaader dekhe 
Shudhui ghrinaa jetaay 
Aabaar raater taader badhu kare 
Asurkhide metaay 

Oder aimon jaadu, bole saadhu 
Namaguni ora pare jegaay 
Orrai raater bhramar hoye 
Nishipadmer madhu je khaay 


Tumraa panthashaalaar saathi sheje 
Jahader paanpeyaalaa bharo  
Tahader kaachhe thipeele taar 
Hisaab keno karo 
Ora je ganno maanno deshvarrenno 
Dasher pranam oder paay 
Orrai raater bhramar hoye 
Nishipadmer madhu je khaay

Ja khushi ora bole boluk 
Oder kathaay ki eshe jaay 
Orrai raater bhramar hoye 
Nishipadmer madhu je khaay 


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LNCiwQIs-0k
......................................................................................................................... 


Mausam Hai Aashiqana - Pakeeza

Such perfect confluence of beauty - the artist, the singer, the lyrics and the music, setting amongst evergreen trees on lonely banks of a body of water in wilderness, and starry skies after days of solitude!  

मौसम है आशिकाना
ऐ दिल कहीं से उनको ऐसे में ढूंढ लाना

कहना के रुत जवां है, और हम तरस रहे हैं
काली घटा के साये, बिरहन को डस रहे हैं
डर है न मार डाले, सावन का क्या ठिकाना
मौसम है आशिकाना

सूरज कहीं भी जाये, तुम पर ना धूप आये
तुमको पुकारते हैं, इन गेसूओं के साये
आ जाओ मैं बना दूँ, पलकों का शामियाना
मौसम है आशिकाना

फिरते हैं हम अकेले, बाहों में कोई ले ले
आखिर कोई कहाँ तक तनहाईयों से खेले
दिन हो गये हैं ज़ालिम, राते हैं कातिलाना 
मौसम है आशिकाना

ये रात ये खामोशी, ये ख्व़ाब से नज़ारें 
जुगनू हैं या जमीं पर उतरे हुए हैं तारें 
बेख़ाब मेरी आँखे, मदहोश है ज़माना
मौसम है आशिकाना...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ugpRuam-zz0 
.........................................................................................................................


Megha Chhaye Aadhi Raat


Beautiful Rakhee in beautiful song, but they did ignore the words while shooting! The first line evokes someone unable to sleep way past midnight, looking at dark clouds, alone, and they had her out on lawn mid day with clouds overhead - which in Indian heat provide welcome relief!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2aQDjbwc-v8 
......................................................................................................................... 


Rasme Ulfat Ko Nibhaye -- Lata Mangeshkar -  Madan Mohan


This was familiar and yet one wasn't conscious, not quite, of this song - and seeing the year of the film, it's obvious why. That was the year of struggling to stay on alive despite starvation and routine beatings that were accelerated to weekly or more, with the education and with holding up one's strength, one's peace, determination, and not just give up! Then one was thrown out after a particularly vicious assault when one was repeatedly thrown, head first, at walls and doors, before it got worse. This beautiful song was lost somewhere between the starving, the assaults, and the consciousness narrowed to staying alive, like when one is almost fainting and the music one still hears is lost in detail. 

Lyrics:- 

Rasm-e-ulfat ko nibhaayen to nibhaayen kaise 
Har taraf aag hai daaman ko bachaayen kaise 

Dil ki raahon mein uthate hain jo duniyawale 
Koi kehde ke woh deewar giraayen kaise 

Dard mein doobe hue naghmein hazaron hain magar 
Saaz-e-dil toot gaya ho to sunaayen kaise 

Bojh hota jo ghamon ka to utha bhi lete 
Zindagi bojh bani ho to uthaayen kaise 

Rasm-e-ulfat ko nibhaayen to nibhaayen kaise 
Rasm-e-ulfat ko nibhaayen 


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y3829c-d7qE

Another video on YT of the song:- 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y3829c-d7qE


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gIf3Gr9yo14
......................................................................................................................... 


Hajar takar jharbati (stree)


Fourfold pleasure what with the two top singers and two top artist heroes! 

Lyrics in Bengali:- 

হাজার টাকার ঝাড়বাতিটা রাতটা কে যে দিন করেছে
তারি নীচে বাইজি নাচে ঠুমরী গানের টুকরো ছুঁয়ে
হাজার টাকার ঝাড়বাতিটা
তবলচিটা দিচ্ছে ঠেকা সারেঙ্গিটা সুর ধরেছে
পিচকিরি টা ঢালছে আতর ধূপের ধোঁয়া যাচ্ছে উড়ে
হাজার টাকার ঝাড়বাতিটা


পরোয়া তো নেই দু দশ লাখ হয় যদি হয় দেনা
একটি রাতের মেজাজটা হোক অনেক টাকায় কেনা
আঙুর ফলের রঙ্গিন রসে পান পেয়ালা ঐ ধরেছি
স্বপ্নে দুচোখ জড়িয়ে আসুক সুরভি আর সুরায় সুরে
হাজার টাকার ঝাড়বাতিটা
ধরনা ধরনা সীতাপতি
রাজা
যে টাকাটা মারছো ছুঁড়ে শোভানাল্লা দিয়ে
সেই টাকাটাই পড়ত যদি একটু দূরে গিয়ে
বেঁচে যেত আজকে কারো কঠোর জঠর জ্বালা
খুলে যেত বন্ধদ্বারের অন্ধকারের তালা
অনাহারের শীতে কেঁপে যে গাছেরি ডাল মরেছে
হয়তো বাঁচার আশা জাগত শিকড় ফুঁড়ে

শিকড় ফুঁড়ে গাছের মতো (বুঝলে সীতাপতি)
শেকড় ফুঁড়ে গাছের মতো আগাছাও তো হয়
মেজাজটা তো আসল রাজা আমি রাজা নয়
তোমরা কেন এত বোকা সেই কথাটাই ভাবি
আমার হীরের আংটি না পেলে ওর জ্বলত নাকি নাকছাবি
হাজার টাকার ঝাড়বাতিটা 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmwr6FnO14
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Ae Ri Main Toh Prem Deewani - Vani Jayaram

Meera - Hema Malini, Vinod Khanna

As good a poet and filmmaker as that of this film was, ego works to bring down the quality of the works by its imposing wilful changes to reality under name of intellectual freedom of the artist - and while India tolerates such mistakes, so no one ever pointed it out, fact is the director imposed an inquisition borrowed from abrahmic faiths onto a history that was of deeply Indian culture, and changed his film from mere freedom of expression of the artist to play, to falsification of facts. Which was a huge blot on the beautiful film, however successfully hidden in the pattern of the narrative of the script.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzKQmyZklGA
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Prem Rog - All Songs - Rishi Kapoor - Padmini Kolhapure - Nanda - Lata Mangeshkar - Suresh Wadkar

Superlative, especially from 12:00 on.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=67u-7Z9Ed90
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Ek Radha Ek Meera | Mujra | Mandakini|Rajiv Kapoor | Ram Teri Ganga Maili | Bollywood Love Songs HD

Beautiful song, beautifully written too.

This is one of the scores of examples that are clear evidence to the contrary about various morons claiming India is racist, in their eagerness to paste a guilt from elsewhere on India fraudulently.

If India were racist, this beautiful woman would have reigned unquestionably supreme for last few decades in Indian films. Instead, she had her chance and was indeed well showcased here, but was looked down upon by the film fraternity and media that were far more into aping a caste system not indian but copied from that of everywhere else, especially western,  and misnamed class so as to identify the very word caste with India. Fact is, cast or caste is an Anglo Saxon word, and means box in German.

And outside india, castes are founded on wealth, power and landed property bases (unlike in India where its classification of professions, and top castes not allowed to charge for services performed as duty, but only to accept what's offered), with a pyramid topped by royalty and cascading down via aristocracy.

This beautiful girl was not a descendant of wealth and titles, but had a root in poor family with lowly occupation, and a large family to support, so she lacked the attitude based on lack of need too, and hence got pushed aside despite her obvious credentials for any viewer who might happen to be racist.

India never was.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcuWwBKWy0U

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Tum se mujhe pyar kyon ho gaya - Na Tum Jaano Na Hum


Lovely song, lovely film, lovely young pair!  

This pair should have had more films. This lovely girl should have had more capable filmmakers, like the Hrishikesh Mukherjee and co of yore, to do justice to her sensitive artistry, very like that of Abhishek Bachchan. They too were wonderful together in LOC. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1IWaqRg7mfI
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Goonji Si Hai, Aao Na, Aishwarya, Viveik Oberoi, Udit, Sadhna Kyun Ho Gaya Na HQ2


Lovely. 


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x725hY_EHRs
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Dheere Dheere - Full Song - Kyun Ho Gaya Na - Vivek Oberoi & Aishwarya Rai

Beautiful, especially 2:50 - 3:20! Beautiful song, beautiful pair, beautiful film. If only it had got it's due, not been victimised due to underworld brohood! 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U4MUaN2Qo3s
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Sajde - Full Song | Kill Dil | Ranveer Singh | Parineeti Chopra | Arijit Singh | Gulzar


Responding to a post "The amount of energy put into the song by the artists is not expressed by the actors, such a shame":-

The lyrics represent inner turmoil of someone finding true love unexpectedly, after being raised an orphan by a mercenary in his work, so the scenes and actors show the love as it proceeds in a gentle rhythm while the singing matches the couldn't turbulence of inner turmoil of the orphan mercenary.
A similar turmoil of being is in an older song, Betaab Dil Ki Tamanna Yehi Hai, from Hanste Zakhm, that one being from a woman in a similar situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4fzOSVy6-o
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Channa Mereya -
Full Song Video
Ae Dil Hai Mushkil
Ranbir, Anushka,| Aishwarya Rai
Pritam| Arijit
 Music- Pritam
Lyrics- Amitabh Bhattacharya
Singer- Arijit Singh
Dharma Productions and Fox Star Studios
Audio on Sony Music Entertainment India Pvt. Ltd(C) 2017

As beautiful as the song is, as lovely as the performance of RKjr, it was catapulted to another level doing when little bundle of joy Jayas Kumar auditioned with it - and went on to be the heart's bliss for hundreds of millions!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=284Ov7ysmfA
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A Raaga, Words, Invocation and more


Gaansaraswati Kishori Amonkar - Sahela Re (Raag Bhoop) ~


One of those rare compositions where words to the Raaga are not only not irrelevant or at odds, but more than go with the spirit of the Raaga, and in fact take it further for the listeners' comprehension of the spirit of the Raaga, of being able to flow with it. Bhoop is an early morning Raaga, of having risen before Dawn and it being still cool of before sunrise, light still soft and brightening. The composition here takes it incredibly further, of opening an invocation of mind, body and Spirit to unity with the Divine, using words that invite one's Mate to join together in Divine notes of invocation, of souls uniting to rise to heavens. This is in spirit of Soul and Energy union, of music at level of pure Yoga in sense of Soul Union with Divine.
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To those who are feeling, as evidenced by the various posts below the video, that great talents of Indian music are gone and there is no replacing them - please do hear the children on various shows! True, the great of yore are gone, as are most of our grandparents, but India overflows with talent and music is very alive too. And this is true of most parts of India. Here are some names.

Children on voice kids India 2016 were impressive, Nishtha Sharma most but others were close behind, and you can get an idea on the internet. Misimi Bose, Vishwaprasad, Priyanshi, are a few names, but those that were out at some stage or other were very good too, numbering some fifty of the sixty in auditions.

Pooja Insa on voice kids 2016 impressed as did Jassu Khan Mir on Z, for double reason. Ridipta, Kaavyaa, Yumna, Pravasthi Attaluri, I can go on with names.

Of those outed there, some ten or more auditioned for Z TV Saregamapa, and some six or so we're selected, and three are still going strong. Well deserved too.

Mythili Thakur on rising star was, is, incredible, match for Nishtha Sharma and so perhaps is Shanmukhapriya who is now on Z TV Saregamapa, having lost votes on voice kids. Superb, all. Rising star had also Ankita and Vikramjeet, and Nikita, very good.

Of slightly older, young adults, three on voice India 2016 were as great as the Supremes mentioned. There is Mohammad Danish, by the way he is grandson of a maestro of yore, but very good. Niyam Kanungo matches him, as does Sharayu Date.

All of these are young, from say ten to early twenties - and then the wonder child Jayas Kumar, just six. He is merely beginning to learn as far as music goes, remember when hearing him on Z TV Saregamapa. If you aren't charmed out of your mind and lost your heart, do have a check up!


https://www.facebook.com/HCMAEOFFICIAL/videos/1992283104329007/?hc_ref=ARQIPdofn48irn920oOdqoU2cdE2kgiNItjBpXj9GkRa4z4MRmHeNKg686MMOkONX-M&__xts__[0]=68.ARC3S4rZHHgL601gesWW8mPL03_hMdYZOz_5S5cE4OrlnN4bd_zbiU7MaDEchOLKjJMEWstd9FEaOzRzMhUA6aqCY5h1THe0QL_md4YJ3g5SpZKjr8PYMvDZgXRedsR667qOsYs&__tn__=FC-R
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To those of us not quite so familiar with the technical factors, it's the feel that tells one the difference - the very word Raaga connoting feeling, mood - and the subtle difference of the two is a bit akin to a blissful dhyaana of Pooriyaa versus a severe vairaagie samaadhi of Maarwaa. Sohni of course is the call of koel at spring, urgent call for its mate!

https://www.facebook.com/HCMAEOFFICIAL/videos/2039556362935014/?comment_id=2050283541862296&notif_id=1530306100138516&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif

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Tuesday, April 1, 2014

Masoom: by Gulzar (screenplay, dialogues, lyrics) for Shekhar Kapur (film director) based on Man, Woman and Child by Erich Segal.



This book is based on the film made by Shekhar Kapur (of Bandit Queen and Elizabeth fame),  and that was adapted from Eric Segal's Man, Woman and Child; unlike Segal's original suited to US ethos of a family that wishes no disturbance in their lives and would rather not acknowledge a member they did not know existed, this film was written and made for India with very very family oriented viewers, so the boy going back to be alone just because his mother had in fact provided for him financially would have been completely unacceptable, so the daughters in question had to walk the delicate balance of being disturbed and being friendly to someone who they don't know is a brother (in a culture where up to fifth cousins are brothers and sisters, half does not could but as full), and the wife and mother the tight rope walk of hating him for being a reminder of her husband's infidelity she did not know about while being naturally melted at her maternal heart for his lonely and lovely self that needs and misses a mother and seeks his father.

The film and especially the children were entirely lovable, and the couple dealing with the problem they did not know existed but needs to be cared for did a good job, as did those that played friends. This was an early evidence of excellence of the director, and that he did not write it was perhaps due to his being new at the film business then.

Tuesday, April 1, 2014.
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Monday, March 31, 2014

Aandhi: by Kamaleshwar (original author) and Gulzar (film screenplay and dialogues writer and director).


I vividly recall going to see this film with family, a sister visiting, and being treated in style because we knew someone; on the way a poem of the director whose poems were amongst my collection and some very favourite including that one kept going on in my head, what with it being now a song on radio, and to my surprise it was a song in this film, albeit a lesser version compared to the original poem. That was sort of augury to further changes to the story of the film as we saw it.

We had seen the original version of the film before India had emergency declared and the film was forced to be re shot and cleaned up version substituted for the original one, because although the original story (by Kamaleshwar who is a well known and respected veteran author in Hindi literature) was inspired by another politician (who happened to be from Orissa) arriving in a helicopter for her pre election meetings and raising a dust storm (Aandhi), with no reference to anyone's real life in the rest of the story, this was less known to general public that read less and so the authorities during emergency instantly saw the film as dangerous in that it might be identified with the then prime minister of India. The cleaned up version obviously was far less genuine, but then the bits that were changed were probably from the director and not the original author anyway, so merely deleting them could have been better rather than substituting lesser ones.

A man gets away with much neglect and even destruction of his family in seeking his goals of career and more, but a woman forever is judged by whether she has sacrificed herself for her family - and if she has given up any notion of a personal life in quest of higher ideals she is then judged for not having given up those ideals in being a slave to all other humans, blood relatives and whoever else might demand her blood.

If she is successful in her career and if her career happens to be public service and she has had to give up a personal life for this, she is nevertheless judged and forever under suspicion for being possibly not quite as virginal as men would like all women to be except when serving their own pleasures, and even then.

Aandhi is about trials and travails of one such woman, who gave up her marriage and family to follow her chosen path.

In the original she is divided between her father who is a top politician and her husband who is a small hotel manager who resents her attentions and following her father because all he would wish for is a small happy family life, but the cleaned up version had her father changed to a businessman who proclaims her being useful to his business if she pursues politics, hinting at his selfishness and the unclean nature of the politics with unethical nature of business and the nexus of the two. Wonder how that bit was passed by the censor in preference to the daughter following a father.

Subsequently the now successful politician campaigning once again for election is mysteriously faced with everything at a small town hotel being of her tastes not known to people generally, until she realises her husband - they never did divorce or at any rate remarry, so in effect the two are still bound and bonded after all the years of separation - is the manager of the hotel. They meet when she has time, but then there is a cloud of suspicion about her character until she publicly clarifies that she has been meeting her own husband whom she left so she could serve people.

She is in a quandary because now she is exhausted and would rather return to a nest to rest, but husband would rather she returned because of preference and not because of failure, and of course if she wins she is not going to give it up - so it ends in her leaving and raising another dust storm as her helicopter leaves.

The original had her own daughter among a bunch of schoolgirls asking for her autograph in the last scene, and the poignancy of a mother who left her infant not recognising the now grown up daughter who nevertheless pines for recognition and any little bit the she can have of the mother she knows only from afar and not even by sight; but this too was cut by the censor during emergency and another bland end substituted.

Wonder what stops the director from restoring the original film - or was that too destroyed by the censors as they did to some other famous ones?

Tuesday, April 1, 2014. 
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Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Original Works, Piracy, Copyrights, Adaptations, Adoptions and DNA

I had often wondered about how anyone could say to someone else "now she is the mother, you are not the mother" as if legal papers is where parenthood is at, much less specifically motherhood.

A father's role is far more about providing of needs of the child post birth, while taking care of the mother during and after the birth is imporatant too - but it all can be done by someone who was not present at conception at any point, and so one could with meaning say, "he is far more a father of the child than the genetic donator of the dna", in many situations.

But a long journey of conception to birth with risks to organs, work, and one's very life, cannot ever be held without meaning; and even if the mother who gave birth hated the whole procedure and the fetus with a rage and a venom, nevertheless her bond cannot be negated, even if it is poison to the child that is unwanted with a vengeance wich most children including those of rape are not - every child is after all a part of her for better part of a year, feeding on her body, carried under her heart, with their experiences and emotions and thoughts intertwined (never mind what you think about ability of the woman and fetus to think or feel).

The only parity is between the genetic and the birth mother, if they happen to be separate, as is now possible with ivf procedures; and a third person, woman or man or even one of third - that is, no - gender, taking care of the child post birth, can equal the other - genetic and biological - mother, but not negate their importance, much less replace the dna or whatever else went into the growing of the embryo into the born child.

The often read or heard (tv, films) sentence "you are not the mother now, she is" has led me to suspect that it was indeed about the rights and legalities involved, and parenthood was seen as a right while the child was not an adult - notice the absence of such rights when the grandparents are denied rights to the grandchild, by the generation in the middle; as if becoming parents has automatically cancelled the rights of the parents of those that now became parents.

What is this concept of rights, of legality and ownership? People who are so very gung ho about copies, piracies, copyrights, how do they negate rights of parents, reality of so basic a kind? Is it all about who has money, who pays - albeit no one pays for the baby officially, still, the underlying logic being, the adoptive parents paid the expenses and moreover have the paper signed and authorised? Thus too the hurry to copyright and patent someone else's heritage across the world so the original ones can now be denied while the copiers profit?

At one time I had had a conversation with someone about a director held to be great, whose most popular work is adapted from a great writer's story and distorts the original considerably, so as to change the whole portrayal of a delicate story into one that can only be described as bordering on stink. The person I was then conversing with was one of the many fans of this director, which really is a fan following based on world wide recognition and a lack of concern for half the world or a perception broader than mind, and I had simply said, you have not read the original. Since the original writer is held greater in esteem by same logic by most for same reasons without even reading him, although many indeed do read and follow and sing his works - he wrote prose, poetry, set his own songs to music and brought a revolutionary university into being - this was unanswerable. Fortunately so, too.

This following conversation happened more recently and brought out a bit more of what is involved in people's thinking about all this, and it tells a tale of attitudes about various issues involved, about copyrights and righteous indignation of some people, nations, cultures against copies and adaptations, while they accept any distortion whatsoever of the original just so long as money has been paid and a contract signed by the original creator if he or she is not dead and copyrights not lapsed.

It explains, too, the theft of Basmati and turmeric medical properties and other ancient knowledge some attempted to copyright so the original populations could stand to lose the heritage of millennia.

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Dr. J. G.

.. Glass Palace is a good one especially with the historical and geographical details, very evocative. I like to read things that give one information about such things - different places, culture, how people think and live, and often it is more informative to read it in story forms where main characters are supposed to be fictional. Even in such supposedly trivial read as Perry Mason or PG Wodehouse or Agatha Christie, one gets something of this nature (California law or England). When it is merely titillating it is not all that worth - and in this one (The Glass Palace) I found the titillating bits irritating, they were out of tune, a bit like ugly patchwork, as if some editor at publishing or something made the writer do it for sake of selling, or he once in a while felt he had to muck about - but such bits are about one percent or less, and mostly it is very worth reading.
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Bill C
I love the works of W. Somerset Maugham. I have not read his early plays but his novels Of Human Bondage, The Moon and Sixpence, The Letter, Rain and his last work, The Razor's Edge, were wonderfully written and insightful.
I even thought the movies of each one of these books was also excellent with Bette Davis and Leslie Howard in Of Human Bondage; Joan Crawford and Walter Huston in Rain; Tyrone Power and Gene Tierney in The Razor's Edge; Bette Davis and Herbert Marshall in The Letter and The Moon and Sixpence with George Sanders.
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Dr. J. G.

I did not know Razor's Edge was his last work, but it does make sense. I thought the films were not as good as the books, especially the Razor's Edge, since they changed the stories a lot - just as they did with The River by Rumer Godden, too. But perhaps there is more than one version. I am unsure of which one I saw, the latter (River) had someone like Harrison Ford or Mel Gibson and the setting was changed to a middle of US mill town with workers homes rather opposite from the original.
Many films do change a lot of details, often enough to lose the main point or make the original story unrecognisable. That includes some of the most renowned directors too.

I rather liked plays of Maugham, the one memorable I can think of is Constant Wife - begins similar to Women by Claire Booth Luce, but goes on to be very different. Luce's work was safer and sadder, more acceptable to conservatives. Maugham had no fear of being different - radicals and eccentrics were not merely allowed but prized and much feted in Britain, so the success of Shaw as well to the level of being a great celebrity.

I have often wondered if others notice the differences between the two versions of the film Man Who Knew Too Much by Hitchcock and see the differences of the two societies he lived in when he made them, the two versions are so very different in various details.

I think I have read almost everything by Maugham, but cannot be sure of course, didn't buy a complete works, - don't remember Letter but think I read it. Problem is when I think of that title what comes to mind is the story by Stephan Zweig!
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Bill C
I agree that the movies of Maugham's work do not replicate the books but I thought the movies were well done simply as movies, not as recitals of the books. I think Braveheart is a good movie but there is hardly a lick of truth in it beyond the basic generalities.
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Dr. J. G.

Yes, I see - but sometimes a great work of literature is far too alive to be remoulded, and while you might not feel that way about these you might about others. There are probably other films that deviate from the original work that I might not disapprove of as much either. I do find that the Razor's Edge loses a great deal in cutting corners and staying short of lofty peaks. So does River, and some others.

Sometime though the film might rise higher and I thought Grapes of Wrath did that.

I am not sure you have thought over logical implications of replacing "authenticity" with "mere recitals" though. This line of reasoning might lead to disparaging of original creators be they writers or musicians or poets or whatever, with a free for all piracy and distortions and an attitude of "it was paid for wasn't it" which really downgrades any original or creative work.

My take on this - a copy or an adaptation is fine and an honest admission of the due to the original is to be appreciated, but a payment however high does not entitle the buyer to change the original much less distort it out of all its meaning any more than an adoption entitles the adoptive parents to change the blood, the dna of the adopted to their own. Keeping the original title is really unnecessary when so much is changed that the work is no longer the same but is a copy.

There are perhaps hundreds of love stories across the world with feuding clans, yet it would be chaos if everyone called theirs Romeo And Juliet, there would be some complaints from the original heritage proud connoisseurs, righteously and with outrage. Another example, it was better for the Kon - Tiki voyager to name his travel story Kon-Tiki rather than Odyssey, even though the voyage across Pacific with the sort of boat he used was of no less importance for the understanding of world history, anthropology, social sciences, navigational sciences, and so on.

And the differences in the two versions of the Hitchcock films made with a gap of time and geography tell their tale of the societies he lived in.
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That last is of course for anyone to see if only one can open eyes and not be blinkered against admission of reality. Both versions of The Man Who Knew Too Much are available for anyone to see, and I wonder if Hitchcock not only was concious of the very visible, very clear difference and the implications, but retained it starkly with a toungue in cheek for all to see with what it meant about his social milieu and the change therein from pre wwII UK to cold war US.

I wonder if it was only geography, at that, and time was of less importance in the difference brought about. Was time a factor at all, at that?

Tuesday, September 1, 2009

Scarlett O'Hara And The hatred Lesser Women Bear For Her

This is a conversation that could have happened a hundred times without coming to blows, but happened this once with explosives going off and I found it difficult to comprehend why, until I closed it unilaterally and looked over in the act of storing it for reference, and realised it was all about their egos being wounded and my dislike for the pompous, illogical "but"s from kiki. She wanted a recognition and went about it the wrong way, and floundered and failed to acknowledge her mistakes of thought and emotion while others joined in when it clearly seemed (to them) like a young woman had successfully finished throwing her shoes at the head of a far more learned, capable, clear-sighted person. None of them debated my points - instead they went on to attack personally as a hoard of jackals would seeing a far larger prey downed or in flight.

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Diane
I can't believe I actually read all 1024 pages of Gone With the Wind. Scarlet does not have one redeeming bone in her body. I did not like this classic book.
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Dr. J. G.

Someone who went out of her way to feed, protect and generally support a bunch of people she did not need to, with hard physical work and much else, at the age of nineteen and with a war raging around? If it were a male you would be swooning at his feet. Do stop the gender blinders and see people for what they are. A woman who does not pretend or parade helpless stupidity and instead goes about to manage what this young one did is indeed a hero. The people she took care of included all of Tara inhabitants with Wilkeses thrown in, her aunts who had little to live on and she sent them money (which allowed them to help out Mrs Butler the mother of Rhett), later the sister of Ashley who lived with Melanie until Melanie threw her out for being ungrateful, and Aunt Pittypat, too - instead of all this, working herself to bones as Melanie puts it, she could have been the helpless rich widow - she had ownership of half the house in Atlanta and the money managed well by uncle Henry - and had everyone sympathise with the single mother of a small boy. But no, she refused to allow Tara to go for taxes or to have the sisters farmed out to relatives and the slaves go about scrounging for food and Wilkeses starve too, and went out to do more than anyone could to save it all. Cotton picking included.

Or perhaps that is the basis of your hatred - cotton picking? Someone working to save two dozen people from starving to death rather than refusing to let happen any soiling her gloved fingers and protecting them from acquiring callouses? A woman who did achieve and did not hit people on the head with what they owed her?
Melanie was no fool, and was honest enough to give Scarlett her due.
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khabira
I just want to address Gone With the Wind. I am a femininst and you must remember that at the time the novel was written the fact that Scarlett survived at all with her sanity attested to her toughness. She would never give up. At that time, unlike now, that was a lot to find in a woman. In Scarlet's world she would never have been allowed to even wear bloomeers which feminists wore to break through the censorship so we today can enjoy wearing pants. Scarlet had no vote. She was practically as owned by her father, husband as were the slaves on the plantations. I hope this will make the novel easier to understand. Historically, women have had to do anything possible to take care of themselves and their children. They had no rights
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Gayle M
Ah, you should have been born when the suffragettes were in action. That was a really fascinating time. There are several books out about that period, don't remember names, but one of them was about the women's conference in Seneca Falls, NY.
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bookwormerin
I love the bumper sticker "Rarely do well behaved women make history"
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Gayle M
Yes, that is sooo very true. I think that any woman who stood out in her time, and was not well behaved, usually got into trouble quickly, and that's why we know who they were and are.
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Dr. J. G.

It is much more than that, Scarlett is really a true high heroine in her saving all those people from starvation to death and protecting people from Melanie to inhabitants of Tara during the war. The negatives come from minds of the likes of those Melanie cast out when push came to shove, including her own blood, for being ungrateful to Scarlett in spite of everything they owed her.

Judging a woman by different scales only to attack her is at the base of such negative light thrown on Scarlett, who would be a hero if she were a male with the same actions and same life. Such gender biases are unseemly at the very least and belong to times of plenty when there is no other concern for anyone except who is attracted to who. And for all that Frank need not have married Scarlett, he might have remembered his obligations and was not forced by anything more than his being dazzled by someone he never hoped to attract. He married her because he wanted to. As did Charles, or Rhett. Men are not toys and if a woman is able to marry one without a shotgun wielding father or a knife brandishing brother to force it, it is because the guy wanted it.

Of course, when such shotguns and knives are brought out, the guy usually deserves it - men protect each other far more than women they are obliged to protect, since they are always aware of themselves being in the same boat another time.
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Kiki68
I love GWTW--one of my all time favorites! Melanie...I just love her. And Scarlett. You may not like them, but they are great "characters."
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sainomoore
The author of GWTW herself was surprised anyone liked Scarlett. she was tying to make her unlikeable. JK Rowling had the same problem with Snape. she was like 'errr..you're not supposed to like him"

Scarlett was a carpetbagger, really. she was what a true southerner hated.
one of the questions is "are we willing to become what we hate to survive."
ironically, Rhett, who was seen as a rogue and dishonorable, was the most true and honorable character. the one person whose respect he wanted was mammie. again, crazy idea for the time. he even bought her a pretty red slip. the respect was hidden, his like and respect for her had to be hidden.

Melanie was very strong and she remained a true lady, giving strength even to her husband when he was realizing the society he respected was crumbling.
I think the novel came out just before WW2. this was an era when women came out if force to stand by their man and support their country. i really hate the "GI jane" heroines. Women have always been strong.
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Kiki68
Except that Scarlett wasn't really a carpet bagger--because she was no Yankee! I like to think of her as a survivor, a phoenix rising from the ashes of complete and total devastation. Sometimes people really do dislike those fighters, especially when they are successful, but you can't help but admire them, as well. And she is the exact opposite of Ashley Wilkes, who let his life force disintegrate with the world he knew around him dying as well, instead of fighting to create a new life.
I totally agree with many of your observations, very true.

Melanie is so great because she is a voice of reason in the storm of the war--she sees people as people, regardless of what side they are on, or their business (Bell Watling, for example).
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nina d
I'm with you. Melanie is best character. She the type of person I wish I could be. But her character does not make for good drama. Scarlet is spoiled and self-centered and always stirs the pot, and all the other characters have to survive the turmoil she creates. For me, I like the scenes with Melanie and Rhett.
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Dr. J. G.

Spoiled and self centered? What stopped her from saving her own self with the boy, depending on the money and the house left her by the husband, and being the genteel helpless widow who men would rush to protect? Anyone can play those games.

Instead she went to save Melanie by staying with her through bombings, took her along to Tara rather than leaving her, worked her fingers to bone to do farmwork (try it without the machines before you talk nonsense about someone who did it) only to feed the whole lot at Tara including the servants, fed the sisters and the Wilkeses and the stragglers too, sent money to her aunts who in turn helped Mrs. Butler to survive, and was the only indirect support of the sister of Ashley who lived with Melanie until thrown out by Melanie for being ungrateful to Scarlett.
It is all very well wishing to be like Melanie, but a Melanie needs a Scarlett to survive much as the Ashleys of this world do too - the Rhett Butlers won't support them, they would allow the lesser men to be winnowed out. The true worth of Melanie is in standing with Scarlett, not in just being sweet. Careen is sweet too, but not a heroine of history. Grandma Fontaine recognises the spirit and worth of Scarlett as much as Melanie does, and gives value due.

As for the writer, the character of Scarlett was based on her grandmother or great grandmother, from what I read.

And Scarlett's own grandmother was far more scandalous, only she did not work physically and expected to be maintained in wealth by the men and hence was called a lady.

If those are your values, anyone, you do stand to be winnowed out when push comes to shove. Working and doing everything humanly possible to help your near and dear survive is a great value of humanity, and anyone disdaining it is either fraud or is going to let one's own family starve just to maintain lily white palms without callouses. Dishones or despicable, or both.
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Kiki68
Hi Dr. J. G.--I too, have always been a big fan of GWTW and Scarlett as well. But we do need to examine her true motives a little here!

Scarlett does not save Tara or Melanie or her sisters because of her deep and abiding love and devotion to them, truth be told. Yes, she loved her parents, but Ma is dead by the time she arrives at Tara after escaping Atlanta, and Gerald is out of his mind. She never wants to go hungry again, never wants to wear rags again, and never wants to be afraid again. She is determined to preserve her own hide. Doing so will involve helping other people survive--and she needs them too. And Rhett pretty much knows this and tells her as much. I am not saying that Scarlett doesn't love her family or Tara, but I would say helping them is not her primary motivation. Also, many of her actions are motivated by her unrealistic devotion to Ashley.

I am not saying Scarlett is not an admirable or strong or even not a feminist character. All I am saying is that it is wrong headed to prescribe to her a lot of compassion for others. She doesn't learn this until the very end, when Melanie dies.
Melanie and Scarlett balance each other so nicely in this novel. You just can't have one without the other, I say. Melanie longs to be strong and "smart" like Scarlett , while Scarlett spends so much of the novel dismissing Melanie and completely misunderstanding her, until the end! That's when she learns to appreciate Melanie. When that balance in her life is gone.

So, sure, I love Scarlett too, for her feisty behavior and gumption. That's why Melanie loves her so, in fact. But Scarlett is not fighting for everyone, she is fighting for herself, and dragging everyone along with her. It is survival of the fittest--and Scarlett is the fittest!

Just my thoughts!
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Dr. J. G.

You are missing the point - it is not about selflessness and compassion, again virtues sought in women but allowed to be absent in men, a gender biased view. Scarlett did not wish to be hungry, or wear rags, but honestly do you? What stops anyone from being hungry or wearing rags if they so desire? And NO she did not need to carry them with her, none of them. She could have very well survived as a single widow with means, with a little boy - if only she had never left Atlanta, never cared what happened back home, survived with the same wit and talents that she used to help others survive. She could just as well have played a helpless mother of a little boy and batted her eyelids at every single soldier and kept her virtue in the bargain too, and let everyone else die.

If pride of an O'Hara is what made her take care of all those that looked up to her, that pride also made her go ready to sell herself just so they all survive. That she married someone instead was a part of not her design as much as the turn of events.

The people should be compared are not Melanie vs Scarlett, although they complement one another and work together and Scarlett admires Melanie with her - Scarlett's - honesty, not a common quality at that in women who fit into the accepted mold of virtue for women. Scarlett would love to hate Melanie but saves her since she did promise to do so, again and again, and admires her when Melanie stands with her holding a sword she dragged down over the dead union soldier, and suggests they check his pockets for money.

If you demand virtues of Buddha then most humanity stands condemned including all of men in any non communist country, and judging all women who achieve anything in realms other than home by the standards that will precisely bring them down is an evil of the society that demands women be kept down, not that far from taliban at that.

Scarlett's virtues are neither selfless social service nor a fitting into norms required but an ability and a self-demand made by honour and pride that she not abandon those she is responsible for - and yet this responsibility is of her own choice. Women normally are required only to care about their own children, and if a woman keeps her virtue and her children starve she is not faulted. This standard of virtue is that of looking at a woman as a glass object, and you are blaming a woman who achieved much by leaving the concern for fragility of glass behind and attempting steel standards. She was not unbreakable, and Melanie's virtue is in recognising Scarlett's worth and the debt of gratitude she owes to her, for all the times Scarlett risked her own self and saved others including the Wilkes family. Melanie's virtue is not in being sweet to everyone which most women do as long as their own interests and needs to throw muck on some other woman are taken care of; Melanie's virtue is in standing up to the whole society along with Scarlett, when Scarlett is in need.

You do not question if a man supports his family and others out of compassion, you celebrate his achievements and demand gratitude from those that benefit, whether family or children or wife. A woman is supposed to love and serve and offer gratitude as long as there is food on table and clothes on back, for her and her children.

The twist in GWTW is that Scarlett is a man - not sexually but in terms of mind and achievements - and Melanie the woman, with Ashley the helpless gentleman who knows what Scarlett is up to and does not stop her from going to Atlanta; hence the scorn of Rhett who is in rage at him, saying he - Rhett - would have gone and done highway murder to stop Scarlett from going to sell herself in order to support them all.

Taking of the gender blinkers is required here for a realistic evaluation. Going about looking for a set ready made bunch of values from either gender is something that belonged to the era of feudal-serf society, and to the minority of upper middle class at that. All those days are gone with the wind. Upper class always did what they pleased (Scarlett's grandma Robillard) and poor did what they had to, and neither could afford artificial values. A person's worth is what he or she is capable of achieving, in any field, all summed up without demands of what their gender makes you expect.

Or else most of non soldier males are deficient, would you say? No, because you would not fault men no matter what. This is your servitude to men, whether you are man or woman, mentally. Let it go.

A spoilt and selfish woman would let everyone else starve and have males around support her with nothing but batting of eyelids to reward them while gathering her skirts from any possibility of someone else's mud sticking to her, which neither of the two women do in this story. If anything it is Suellen who would let others starve while she is taken care of by Frank, an assessment not denied by the man who marries her, the worthy Will Benteen (is that his name?) who knows the worth of Scarlett without being charmed (she did not set her cap at him, or she could have had him do the highway robbery for her while they waited to have him bring the moolah back!) - and hence is her friend.
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Kiki68
Who is demanding the virtues of Buddha? And who says compassion and selflessness are not important qualities for anyone to have, of any gender?

I think you are missing my point, actually.

Instead of hiding under the bed and letting it all go (kind of like Ashley, a man, does throughout the book), Scarlett takes action--she is motivated by many things, but most importantly, by survival.

Scarlett is an excellent character because she is a woman, ahead of her time.
"You do not question if a man supports his family and others out of compassion, you celebrate his achievements and demand gratitude from those that benefit, whether family or children or wife. A woman is supposed to love and serve and offer gratitude as long as there is food on table and clothes on back, for her and her children."--No--I never, ever said that! You are really twisting the whole thing! I totally disagree with your statements here, I think you are talking yourself into a corner--we agree more than we disagree!

"Women normally are required only to care about their own children, and if a woman keeps her virtue and her children starve she is not faulted."--really? I think at even during the Civil War, this would be questioned, especially with a women like Scarlett. Sure there are societal norms, but this is not a normal time. Scarlett is moving forward while Ashley is stuck in the past.

And of course no one wants to starve or wear rags,but some people are tougher than others and are able to fight, where others just can't, due to no fault of their own (physical weakness/illness/lack of smarts to put it plainly), regardless of gender! Scarlett is also not an in the box thinker either--she is always "scheming" (so pejorative), and thinking ahead, trying to determine her next move.

Yes, it is Will Benteen. And Scarlett realizes she has no one to turn to--she has to do something because no one else is capable. It is just that simple. Sure, there are feminist leanings in the book, but I believe they are there accidentally. Statements are being made about the time period and Scarlett comes through as an extraordinary character. This kind of person existed, I am sure (yes, yes, Mitchell's grandmother/Scarlett's grandmother, I know!), but not just them. There were women during the Civil War that went above and beyond to survive, to help the war effort (on both sides) and there always have been everywhere.

Anyway, let's agree to disagree, although, I think we agree more than either of us think!

I certainly do not hold all these gender bias you seem to be accusing me of ("Or else most of non soldier males are deficient, would you say? No, because you would not fault men no matter what. This is your servitude to men, whether you are man or woman, mentally. Let it go."--wow, how insulting of you to say this to me--I never said this in any way! And I've found much fault in many men, fictional and real! I certainly have a problem with Ashley, and although I think Rhett a great character, I do not see him as a real hero in any way--he does what is convenient for him to survive--why he and Scarlett are so very similar.)

I am in no way in servitude to any man or woman, thank you very much!
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Dr. J. G.

Here is a clearing up of the reason for my last post - you in your post previous to the one above pointed out that Scarlett did not help anyone out of compassion or selfless motives, and my thrust mainly was to say that this does not in any way detract from the effect of her having supported a whole lot of people whom she need not have.

My main point in the post previous to this is that virtues of people ought to be seen individually instead of pointing at a woman for not behaving like what is expected of a woman strictly speaking.

If anyone is compassionate there is no reason for me to dislike or berate this, but someone supporting a whole clan or three can be lauded even if the motive is pride and honour.

I was not in any way addressing you or anyone else personally, it is always a post and its implications and so forth that I deal with. If you agree with me fine, if you still think "but Scarlett is not nice" your choice.

And no, I doubt any woman will be socially ostracised for not selling her body if her child died of starvation in any war, but those that did use this route for supporting their near and dear, including the white slavery victims of today across border from Germany who are brought there by cheating and kept there by force and blackmail, are seen and spoken of by settled fortunate women (and their husbands who refute any criticism of the clients of those brothels) as "that sort of women, one cannot blame men" and so on.

Whether or not anyone has a prejudice is really something each one ought to examine for oneself - and others can only see it in the writings, posts, debates, arguments put forth by the person.

Finally for Ashley, such men and women might not survive primitive times as war usually brings but the value of those is not negligible either - he has some excellent qualities that many women would be glad to find in a man. Education for example seems irrelevant when one is building a log cabin but eventually society needs to rise above that and progress, and a researcher in an academic seeming subject is not without value, as indeed a true gentleman is not either. But when in trouble and need someone with the resourceful strength of Rhett is very good to have on your side, in sheer survival need.

I hope this clear up the animosity you obviously felt - however if you still feel hurt, take care.
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Kiki68
"you in your post previous to the one above pointed out that Scarlett did not help anyone out of compassion or selfless motives, and my thrust mainly was to say that this does not in any way detract from the effect of her having supported a whole lot of people whom she need not have." I never said it did, my dear!

I never said it detracted from her as a person, I am just being honest about her motives in the book, I said as much several times. I am not looking at her "virtues' as gender based/biased, although that is clearly how she is viewed by her peers and elders in the novel.. She is the toughest character in the book, and one of my all time favorites.

For me, there is nothing to distract me from the fact that Scarlett, whether you think she is a tough nut, a spoiled brat, a feminist before her time or a typical Southern Belle, is probably one of the most well rounded and believable characters, male or female ever.

The animosity comes from someone telling me what I think when I clearly didn't say any of those things, nor did I imply them! I am sure others may feel that way, but I don't.

My feelings are not hurt, but I am a little defensive when someone tells me I am being "gender biased." Maybe I am, but towards women! Who I believe are quite often superior in many ways to men, generally speaking!

Anyway, no harm done, but please know where I stand--I have loved Scarlett since I was 14 and first read the book--clearly she is a woman before her time. I find little or no fault in her actions, except that maybe she is a little cold to her first two children, but she is a child herself when they are born, and many people are just like that with their children--mothers and fathers. And I only really perceived that after becoming a mother myself. She is the hero of the book, saving Tara and its inhabitants from certain death and starvation--I have never denied that--it is one of the many reasons I adore her.

Have a great evening!
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Dr. J. G.

"Hi Dr. J. G.--I too, have always been a big fan of GWTW and Scarlett as well. But we do need to examine her true motives a little here!
Scarlett does not save Tara or Melanie or her sisters because of her deep and abiding love and devotion to them, truth be told. Yes, she loved her parents, but Ma is dead by the time she arrives at Tara after escaping Atlanta, and Gerald is out of his mind. She never wants to go hungry again, never wants to wear rags again, and never wants to be afraid again. She is determined to preserve her own hide. Doing so will involve helping other people survive--and she needs them too. "

That is the quote from your post that my reply to you began with, which got you angry and defensive and whatever else you claim, enough to go "my dear".

Bye.
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Kiki68
I am not angry or defensive. But now I am annoyed.
And you keep repeating what I've already said, without making any point at all. Pointless.
You make no sense at all.
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Dr. J. G.

Now you are incorrect to the point of your post being a lie, kiki. I quoted your own post to point out that you did derogate a woman on basis of being not full of womanly virtues, else the quote from your post is without any meaning whatsoever. Subsequently you changed your tune but then went on to attack me and claim you had said the opposite of what your post quoted by me implied, and this time you are claiming I am going on repeating what you said when in fact it was only one quote at the end of your corkscrew posts that went round from admiration to derogatory to defensive and attacking. Good bye, you without reason and with venom. I am not going to read your posts, it is a waste of my time and energy and is no use to make you see sense in any way. Play with little girls your own age, and hold your claws back. They shall not be so gentle as I have been in perceiving your lack of maturity, since they will be your own level.
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Dr. J. G.

Mel, and those of you that are of similar mind in this, - when circumstances are adverse and survival is not guaranteed for you, as it happened during civil war and is not promised to anyone it won't happen again, I suppose you have a Rhett or a Scarlett to depend on - unless you have it in yourself and recognise it, and the dislike or the comments are immature like the rest of this debate in attacking me.

Goodbye.
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Subsequently there were some hate posts serving no point - one from the "spoiled, selfish" comment maker to the effect that it was only fiction and it did not matter, and I could not comment on how much hardship she had had since I did not know her (if she did have hardships, why was recognition of another girl's hardships missing, that too to support a weary load she had chosen for sake of family honour?). All this was merely jackals gathering to hound a superior downed in their perception, or one in flight and hence unlikely to turn around on them.

In any case since they are blind to truth, deaf to logic and couldn't care less about justice, their braying was a mere headache. I left with this in major post rather than replying -
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Dr. J. G.

I should have remembered (Mitchell mentioned as much explicitly too), women did not like Scarlett, with few exceptions - Ellen her mother, Grandma Fontaine the realistic and gone-through-hardships open-eyed wise old woman, and Melanie who was just as honest as Scarlett.


Being "ladies" who are taken care of depends on everyone being convinced you are a helpless lot, all women, and men (or servants) have to do everything; if you are capable of getting out of your helpless crinoline-and-fans at twenty odd years suddenly to drive through a war

raging, go do farmwork with lily white hands to get callouses only to save hides of those you don't even like, and then not only save a plantation but create a thriving business outbidding men competing with you only because you can do sums in your head while they need to

scratch with pencils, then you are defying all conventions about helplessness of women, and hence endangering the safe cushy lives of other women the men you defeated in work are supporting.


Any woman in a non-women-ghetto work still stands the same danger from women, from what I have seen around - whether in science or whatever. I am reminded of a male remarking something obscene about Fiorina.

Schade.

Being like Melanie is not easy or cheap, for all that - she is sincerely able to see good in everyone and sees no reason to dislike a more attractive woman, and has honesty of admitting and gratitude for all she owes too; and has courage to stand up to all other women when Scarlett is in need, to risk her own social standing. This is more than just being weak and helpless and sweet and smiling, of which the latter is not trivial when sincere.

Neither of them is manipulative in the real sense - that of using a false sweetness only to stab in the back. Scarlett's one fault was being unaware of how dangerous the hatred of other women could be, how lethal. That speaks of an innocence, a mind used for better purposes - of saving her people from extermination - than the intricate emotional wars to little purpose other than sharpening more of the same weapons.


Men liked Scarlett when they were not threatened by her competence in their own fields -